After I read Bloch's discussion http://www.infoq.com/news/2010/04/bloch_java_future
I started to think about "Do I have to switch to scala for new web developements" or is java preferred in all cases. What is your opinion ?
Thanks,
If your choice is between Java or Scala, you should probably go with Scala. Spring, Hibernete, etc. works just fine with Scala, so if you can use it right now. Tooling for Scala isn't too bad in IntelliJ at this point. It's not like it was 6 months to a year ago.
However, I must caution you... Java is a pretty bloated platform at this point for strictly web development. I was a hardcore Java software architect for 9 years, and have been doing Scala recently, so I have a bias towards these platforms. Even still, if all you want to do is make an app that provides modest functionality over a database, you should just use Grails, or even Rails (although Grails will probably fit your skillset better).
I wouldn't recommend doing Lift for Scala unless you already know functional programming.
It depends on what kind of web applications you want to work with although I would choose java due to the large code and API base its large community
I am still a big fan of Java Spring. Some people think it might be a little heavy weight however, with annotations and auto wiring, you can put together Web apps really quickly. As well, with Java, you have access to a whole wealth of open source libraries especially from Apache commons.
One of the things I don't really like about Scala/Lift is that the line between view and controllers are a little mixed. With Java Spring, there is a clear distinction between view and controllers particularly if you use a template language for the view like Apache Velocity.
Over all though, depending on the size of your project, I don't think there is a large difference between Scala and Java. Both will do the job for you. If your project has the potential of becoming very big, I would err on choosing Java because of its maturity and large body of mature open source libraries readily available.
I think it depends on the scale of your web applications and your human resources. Do you have good programmers who can catch up with the new technology quickly? You also need to care about the due time for the project and the budget as well.
It may be a good time to try out new technology only if it is really suitable for your project. Java still has a strong position in community and you can also find a lot of supports and open source framework.
Is it possible to replace any java coding which I use daily with groovy or scala? E.g. writing small webapps which include servlets/portlets etc.
I've completely replaced my server side processing/data crunching that would previously be written in Java with Scala. It's made life a lot easier, and a lot more fun.
Small servlets for REST webservices written on top of Step (web pico "framework", it's a single code file, comically small servlet wrapper) http://github.com/alandipert/step. Scala's xml handling combined with a simple json outputter (I use Twitter's) makes this completely painless.
Hibernate + Annotations as my persistence layer (very painless once you've cleaned up the Hibernate's collection handling/types)
Various data crunching background tasks.
It's certainly possible, and a really simple transition to make. Just start writing Scala as if you were writing Java, at it's worst it's just Java but much less verbose. From there you can gradually pick up the Scala concepts over time: Options, functional concepts, closures etc.
I have been using Groovy for a few months now and find that it addresses a lot of the things that have been bothering me about Java for a number of years (handling collections, null pointers, verbosity). The principal is that you should be able to take your Java source file, rename it to .groovy and start converting gradually ... that isn't quite true because Groovy doesn't support inner classes, for loops with multiple loop variables, do..while, and character literals, but these are easy to fix.
Scala is the statically-typed alternative ... Bill Venners reckons it allows you to achieve the same as Java (with compile-time checking) in about half the number of lines of code. And Scala has the LIFT framework, which is less mature than Grails but still promising.
Both Groovy and Scala are worth exploring, and will (eventually) make you more productive.
I use Groovy all the time for utilities, both on the command line and on the web. Often, the utilities use jars/class files from my project, since it is all on the JVM.
For web utils, take a look at Groovlets. You can come up to speed with Groovlets in a couple of hours. A groovlet is simply a servlet distilled down to its essence.
If you need to persist state, Grails is a leading web framework (with a higher learning curve).
I don't know about portlets per se, as that is its own beast.
yes. both are compiled for the same VM, you can use Java classes in them. the programming language syntax is just sugar coating on the JVM bytecode, which is the same no matter what.
I'm writing a Java application using Struts 2, but now I'd like to make it a hybrid Java & Scala project instead. I don't have much experience with Scala, but I learned Haskell years ago at college -- I really liked the functional programmed paradigm, but of course in class we were only given problems that were supremely suited to a functional solution! In the real world, I think some code is better suited to an imperative style, and I want to continue using Java for that (I know Scala supports imperative syntax, but I'm not ready to go in the direction of a pure Scala project just yet).
In a hybrid project, how does one decide what to code in Java and what to code in Scala?
Two things:
99% of Java code can be expressed in Scala
You can write projects that support mixed Java+Scala compilation. Your Scala code can call your Java code and your Java code can call your Scala code. (If you want to do the latter, I suggest defining the interface in Java and then just implementing it in Scala. Otherwise, calling Scala code from Java can get a little ugly.)
So the answer is: whatever parts you want. Your Scala code does not need to be purely functional. Your Scala code can call Java libraries. So pretty much any parts you could write in Java you could also write in Scala.
Now, some more practical considerations. When first trying Scala, some people pick relatively isolated, non-mission-critical parts of their program to write in Scala. Unit tests are a good candidate if you like that approach.
If you're familiar with Java and have learned Haskell in the past, I suggest treating Scala as a "better Java". Fundamentally, Scala compiles to JVM bytecode that is very, very similar to what Java outputs. The only difference is that Scala is more "productive": it produces more bytecode per line of code than Java does. Scala has a lot of things in common with Haskell (first-class functions, for-comprehensions are like Haskell's do-notation, limited type inference), but it's also very different (it's not lazy by default, it's not pure). So you can use some of your insights from Haskell to inspire your Scala style, but "under the hood" it's all Java bytecode.
In the spirit of your question, I recommend you write in Scala any code that involves heavy manipulation of collections, or that handle XML.
Scala's collection library is the foremost functional feature of Scala, and you'll experience great LoC reduction through its usage. Yes, there are Java alternatives, such as Google's collection library, but you asked what you should write in Scala. :-)
Scala also has native handling of XML. You might well find the transition difficult, if you try to take DOM code and make it work on Scala. But if you, instead, try to approach the problem and the Scala perspective and write it from scratch for Scala, you'll have gains.
I'd advise using Actors as well, but I'm not sure how well you can integrate that with Struts 2 code on Java. But if you have concurrent code, give Actors in Scala a thought.
It might sound silly, but why not write your entire project in Scala? It's a wonderful language that is far more expressive than Java while maintaining binary-compatible access to existing Java libraries.
Ask these questions of your project:
"What operations need side-effects?" and "What functionality is already covered well by Java libraries?" Then implement the rest in Scala.
However I would warn that hybrid projects are by their very nature more difficult than stand alone projects as you need to use multiple languages/environments. So given you claim not much experience with Scala I'd recommend playing with some toy projects first, perhaps a subset of your full goal. That will also give you a feel for where the divide should occur.
I'd like to know how you address the seemingly low productivity of Java EE-based web application development compared to other technology stacks (Seaside, Ruby on Rails, etc).
The constraints are:
The finished web application must be deployable on Java EE compliant application containers
If possible, previous investment in Java-based solution should be preserved, i.e. native interoperability with Java-based systems and libraries should be possible
Due to team structure, Java as implementation language is preferred, although less exotic JVM-based languages (i.e. Groovy) might be acceptable as well
The resulting system needs to be architecturally sound
The resulting system needs to be extensible and maintainable
To not let this dwindle into a philosophical discussion, I'm only interested in suggestions that are based on practical experience. Possible examples include domain specific languages, frameworks and MDSD.
If you point to an abstract class of solutions (like MDA / MDSD), please provide details on how you implemented it as well as information about common pitfalls and best practices.
If you disagree on the assumption that Java EE-based web application development implies inferior productivity, I'd like to hear your reasoning as well.
EDIT:
As there are a lot less answers than I expected, I'll accept accounts of abortive attempts as well, basically extending the question to "How (not) to improve productivity when developing Java EE based web applications?".
I believe the Java EE Java stack is actually very good. There are a few reasons explaining the low productivity of Java EE:
Being “the enterprise stack”, it is often used to create boring, ugly, “good enough” applications and, in general, enterprises tend not to attract great developers who love programming, and think and care about what they do. The quality of software in the enterprise world is not great.
Being the enterprise stack where the money is, software vendors try to sell something to them. They create huge, complex and expensive solutions not because they are good, but simply because they could sell them to enterprises.
Enterprises are often very risk averse and everything they do better be “standardized”. Standards are created either after some technology proved to be successful or before. In both cases, it’s bad for enterprises (and Java). Enterprises end up using either good technology too late or a downright failed technology. The latter case is also very dangerous because it creates a false perception that a technology (otherwise a complete failure) must be good if it is standardized and everyone is using it.
Historically, Java EE platform seemed to have attracted a lot of architecture astronauts and developers in big companies promoted to architects whose only purpose was to create more layers, more frameworks, more abstractions and more complexity.
It’s not that there are no good Java tools and frameworks; it’s that there are too many bad ones, too many over-engineered ones, too many bureaucratic processes and methodologies, too many useless standards.
In such a messy world it’s not just the particular selection of tools you choose that affects your productivity. It’s mainly about you, about your values, about how you can reject the majority of solutions proposed to you by the community, vendors, co-workers and managers. It’s about you going against the current, about your common sense, about you questioning every mainstream belief and “best practice”.
That said, tools alone are not going to change your productivity much, and conversely, the right people can be productive with inferior tools too.
My advice:
Don’t use a technology only because it’s standard, because everyone uses it, or because it’s officially recommended by Sun. Use a technology only if you personally think it’s the best tool for your job. This way you may find yourself rejecting technologies such as JSF, JSP, Web services, JMS, EJB, JTA, OSGi, MDA.
Keep it simple, use your common sense, question everything. Do you really need to publish your objects for remote access? Do you really need to create another abstraction layer so that you can switch from Hibernate to TopLink? Do you really need to convert your data to/from XML ten times every time you need them? Do you really need XML schema? Do you really need everything to be configurable are interchangeable? At runtime? By non-developers?
Keep the process simple. Be agile. Do you really need that documentation? Do you really need to describe every screen in a huge table, have it approved, type it in to some home-made tool and then generate JSP? Do you have competent programmers or you design everything first and programmers only “translate” to Java?
WYSIWYG design of HTML doesn’t work.
Graphical programming in general doesn’t work. This includes UML as blueprint and UML as programming language, MDA, drawing page flow diagrams. Code generation is bad.
Never design a framework prior to using it, always harvest a framework.
Prefer frameworks that have only little XML configuration.
Strive for low LOC count. Look at actual characters in your code. Is every character important? Think. What can you do to make your code smaller? Do you need that class? What does it do? Why do you need to do that?
Testing is not sacred cow; you don’t need 100 % test coverage. Test only what makes sense. If it’s difficult to test, make it simpler; or don’t test it at all. Don’t test visual appearance.
And finally, some concrete Java recommendations:
For presentation layer try Tapestry. Why do I love it? Because with Tapestry you can create beautiful code. It’s designed specifically for that, so that your code can be beautiful. Your code. By beautiful I mean everything that matters – it’s short, easy to change, easy to read, easy to create your abstractions, and still flexible, it doesn’t try to hide the fact that you are developing for the web. Of course, it’s still you who makes your code beautiful.
Feel free to use Hibernate, especially for CRUD and large apps. Don’t bother with JPA. It’s not a silver bullet though, with ORM you are always going to trade one set of problems with another.
Only a little Spring, you shouldn’t need much since you’ve carefully avoided all the Java EE traps. Use dependency injection sparingly.
After all of that, you may find the Java language too verbose and not very helpful when abstracting away you copy/pasted code. If you want to experiment, try Scala. The problem is that the main selling point of Scala is that you get all the benefits of modern languages while still keeping type safety, and at the same time, there is no solid IDE support. Being used to super-cool Java IDEs, it doesn’t make much sense to switch to Scala unless there’s an IDE support that is stable and reliable. Stable enough is not enough.
Frameworks like Spring, Hibernate, Wicket certainly help to simplify and accelerate web development as they provide a high degree of testability and integrate very well. But it's not enough to reach RoR productivity, even if you have a good set of development practices. There is still too much technical stuff and plumbing required.
Grails is maybe the missing piece in this picture to get closer to RoR. It's my next experimentation.
BTW, my MDA experiences are the contrary of a productivity improvement so I won't mention them (actually, MDA was killing our productivity).
Javarebel can greatly reduce time spent during web development using Java.
Let me quote here the official website:
JavaRebel is a JVM plugin (-javaagent) that enables you to see changes to your code immediately, without the need to redeploy an application or perform a container restart. If you're tired of watching the logs roll by, and want to see your changes so that you can keep going - JavaRebel is your new best friend.
One important point when discussing Java EE productivity: you should be using Java EE 5 and EJB3.x since they provide for new level of productivity (and functionality) compared to previous releases.
Staying within standard Java EE specs is absolutely important, e.g. using Hibernate instead of JPA is not beneficial to productivity. There is no limitation to fall back to Hibernate features when using JPA, but by using Hibernate instead of JPA you are locked in into single persistence provider with no cheap way out. The whole idea behind using standards is the same: conceptual flexibility (by plugging in different implementations) with available extensibility (by using proprietary extensions if absolutely necessary). Java EE 5 and EJB3 are huge steps in this direction. Of course, you want to minimize any proprietary features but if some seem absolutely necessary it's a good sign that they will be part of spec in next release...
Main obstacles to Java EE productivity are in its enterprise focus (offers a lot more than than needed for majority of projects) and in its legacy (backward compatibility). There is also a lot more to be done in presentation tier with JSF and state management - watch for JSR-299 to address these among other improvements.
Grails is a Java webapp framework very much modelled after Ruby on Rails, with similar principles (DRY, CoC) and productivity gains, but based on existing Java frameworks (Spring, Hibernate, several others).
I've been working on an exploratory project using Grails for a few weeks now (no previous experience in Grails or Groovy), and I'm quite impressed. There are a few rough edges - it's not as mature as RoR, but you can get results quickly and there's never the feeling that the framework is getting in your way.
Maybe it's best illustrated by this concrete example: I wanted to edit a 2D array of domain objects in a grid on a single webpage and found that the automatic mapping of the resulting HTML request data to the domain objects (provided by Spring MVC, I believe) had a bug that caused some data to be mapped to the wrong objects. I looked around on the web for an hour, but apparently nobody had encountered or solved the problem. Eventually I decided to forego the automatic mapping and do it "manually" - and then found that it took me no more than about 10 lines of code...
It's often cited that RoR and similar frameworks based on dynamic languages are more productive environments, but I am really interested to know if there are hard data to back this up. This wouldn't be easy, as one should be made certain that she is not comparing apples with oranges. Things like type of project (web 2.0, enterprise application) and team size should be taken into consideration. However, for small projects it is more than evident that such frameworks are indeed far more productive than Java EE. So this is a short list of arguments used to support this and what you can do for them in the Java world.
Ruby is a more intuitive and concise language. You can do the same thing with much less code.
I don't think you can have the same thing in Java, unless of course you use a dynamic language that runs in the JVM (JRuby, Scala, Groovy). Otherwise, your IDE can help. In Jave an IDE is an essential tool and it will pay you back if you learn to use it well (code generation, snippets, refactoring). In fact there are many things you can do with a Java IDE that are simply impossible to do with a Ruby or Python IDE. Plus you have the benefits of a static typed language. It may take more time to type, but it helps you avoid common mistakes.
Ruby is much more fun to use. Makes the developer happier and more productive.
Same as above. Highly subjective argument in my opinion though.
Convention over configuration makes things faster
A dependency injection framework like Spring or Guice can help
Scaffolding, MVC already there for you.
Again Java MVC frameworks can help
Databases made easy. Load database items as objects. Can change the database on the fly.
Hibernate, iBatis or another ORM framework can help. With Hibernate Tools you can achieve similar functionality with what you have in RoR with yml files
Load new modules instantly
Maven or Ant Ivy can help
Easy deployment for testing
Your IDE or Jetty can help. In fact debugging is easier with Java
Testing integrated with the framework. Use of mock objects facilitate testing
A dependency injection framework can help with mock objects. JUnit was a pioneer of unit frameworks. I don't think that Java is less easy to test.
I would definitely go for Spring together with Hibernate for persistency related stuff.
Why Spring?
The advantage of using Spring instead of another framework is that Springs philosophy is to be "non-invasive". Usually when you're using a framework most probably you'll start to depend on that framework which can be a bad issue if the application is considered to run for a longer time where you then have also to do maintenance etc. Spring uses the so-called "Inversion of Control" (IoC) pattern. Basically your code doesn't (it can but it doesn't have to) call Spring, but Spring will call you (Hollywood principle: "don't call me, I'll call you"). So for instance you can use normal POJOs (Plain Old Java Objects) and you don't have to inherit from any framework-related classes/interfaces.
Another big problem (if not the biggest) in Software Engineering are dependencies. You'll fight for reducing them as much as possible since they will make your life harder (especially in maintenance later on). Spring reduces dependencies among your components drammatically by managing the instantiation of components through configuration files and the dependency injection pattern. I wouldn't want to go on, the best thing is that you start reading some tutorials at the official Spring website. Initially it may need some time in the understanding but once you got it you'll earn a lot of benefits.
Since Jython 2.5 you can use django to satisfy the requirements you listed. It's pretty easy to generate war files from django projects and deploy them on J2EE application servers.
Just wanted to pitch in another idea... you can actually use JRuby and Rails (similar to the previous comment about Django and Jython).
If you use JRuby with Rails and JRuby Rack (and maybe some other utilities... I wasn't the one to actually get the integration going initially), you can deploy JRuby Rails additions to an existing Java web app. We have a legacy JSP application deployed with Tomcat, and are now starting to add new pages using Rails with just that setup (in addition to extending the JSP side when necessary). So far it has been quite successful, though we don't have any of the major high traffic pages implemented in Rails, so I don't know how well it will scale.
We have full access to the session, and have even set up mechanisms to invoke JSPs from Rails pages (such as existing header and footer type JSP includes). It takes some effort and trial and error to fully integrate the 2, but if Rails and JRuby is an option, I highly recommend it (as a personal fan of Ruby).
A colleague has dabbled in JBoss Seam, which is a framework by Gavin King (the guy who brought us Hibernate), which was meant to emulate Rails. Having seen both, I feel Rails is a lot easier to develop with.
Use AOP (Aspect Oriented Programming) for cross cutting aspects like logging, authorization etc. You can either use Spring AOP or AspectJ. It makes code clutter free and maintainable.
I've used Jboss Seam for the past couple of years and find it to be very productive way to develop in Java EE (utilising EJB3, Hibernate, Facelets). I also do the odd bit of PHP coding on the side and can honestly say that I'm more productive with Seam (although that's probably also an indication of my PHP skills.)
For me a couple of the highlights would be:
Hot deploy of code (an absolute must-have)
DRY with Facelets
Annotation based configuration
Extensive drop-in components (especially ajax4jsf)
IDE Support from Jboss Tools
There are tools in the IDE and from the command line to build skeleton code in a similar way to RoR.
Well, I'm not really a Java guy, so I can't say much, except for... JSF
We tried to use it for some time and it was a disaster. Almots all basics steps had to be passed with lots of pain, no documentation, no examples, no community knowledge. We used then one plugin for Eclipse (Exadel Studio), we had a look at a few other JSF frameworks, they were all incompatible and poorly documented. As a matter of fact, of all those we tried, only Sun framework (forgot its name, based on NetBeans) could create a new JSF project even compilable out of the box. The rest required many days of configuration of apache and other things, which for an unexperienced person is a real challenge (though I managed it).
Our team spent a few months on something which was done later in just a few weeks with ASP.NET. People were both inexperienced in JSF and ASP.NET.
If JSF ecosystem is still that bad as it was in 2007, I would recommend avoiding it altogether, productivity is out of the question anyway. Maybe stick with JSP or something that is time-proved and well developed?
I would go with the Lift framework written in Scala. You will see a great productivity boost just by switching to Scala. Scala is also very stable and it's extremely easy to call Java code from your Scala code. Not only that but it's quite similar to Java but with some added features. For some examples you should refer to 5 Things a Java developer needs to know about Scala. Twitter will move part of it's codebase to Scala.
You will never "get stuck" on a piece of code because you can just think about how you would do it in Java and write similar code. First class functions and actors will give you an even greater productivity boost and are both in Scala. Scala is of course statically typed and has a performance that is similar to Java.
I will quote the author of the Lift framework for an description of it:
Lift borrows from the best of existing
frameworks, providing
Seaside's highly granular sessions and security Rails fast flash-to-bang
Django's "more than just CRUD is included"
Wicket's designer-friendly templating style (see Lift View
First)
And because Lift applications are
written in Scala, an elegant new JVM
language, you can still use your
favorite Java libraries and deploy to
your favorite Servlet Container. Use
the code you've already written and
deploy to the container you've already
configured!
Some basic rules:
Kick out the appserver - a HUGE win in turnaround and quality. Keep a web container if you have to, but configure everything in Spring and/or Hibernate so the web.xml is minimal.
Test everything, which you can now do because of step 1 (no deploy-time XMLs or code generation needed: everything is configured in the development already).
Use Wicket to implement your web tier - nobody needs JSP any more; Wicket is 10 times more productive plus easy to test (see step 2).
Use SCRUM and agile development methodologies
The result is Java productivity as high as 4GLs allow - we at Atomikos have several migration projects we did like this. Because we migrated from 4GL platforms to Java/Java EE, we could compare the estimates in both.
Also see this blog post: http://blog.atomikos.com/?p=87
HTH
Guy
After discovering Clojure I have spent the last few days immersed in it.
What project types lend themselves to Java over Clojure, vice versa, and in combination?
What are examples of programs which you would have never attempted before Clojure?
Clojure lends itself well to concurrent programming. It provides such wonderful tools for dealing with threading as Software Transactional Memory and mutable references.
As a demo for the Western Mass Developer's Group, Rich Hickey made an ant colony simulation in which each ant was its own thread and all of the variables were immutable. Even with a very large number of threads things worked great. This is not only because Rich is an amazing programmer, it's also because he didn't have to worry about locking while writing his code. You can check out his presentation on the ant colony here.
If you are going to try concurrent programming, then I think clojure is much better than what you get from Java out of the box. Take a look at this presentation to see why:
http://blip.tv/file/812787
I documented my first 20 days with Clojure on my blog
http://loufranco.com/blog/files/category-20-days-of-clojure.html
I started with the SICP lectures and then built a parallel prime number sieve. I also played around with macros.
What project types lend themselves to using Java over Clojure, vice
versa, or in combination?
A project where a GUI-building tool
(such as Matisse in Netbeans) is
needed would be a case where Java may
still be required. Anything done in
Java can be done in Clojure quite
readily, with proxy and gen-class if
needed, or just accessing Java as
needed (., doto, new, etc.). This
allows Clojure projects to easily use
Java libraries or legacy Java code.
Which programs which you would have never attempted before Clojure ?
Before I found Clojure, I was
contemplating a project that required
JDBC, would run in a servlet
container, and I anticipated doing a
lot of iterative development because
it wasn't clear what methods would
work for the data I needed to analyze.
I put it on the back burner because I
didn't have the time or patience for
the compile-debug- deploy-validation
cycling that Java requires. I've now
written the application in Clojure,
and I'm very pleased at the ease of
making changes on the fly and being
able to examine the results
immediately. Not to mention the joy
of lock-free programming and being
liberated from having to develop (and
refactor) class hierarchies.
- "MikeM" via the clojure#googlegroups.com mailinglist
What project types lend themselves to Java over Clojure, vice versa, and in combination?
If you want to develop a framework that is to be consumed by Java and Clojure, I've found writing the main abstractions (interfaces ad base classes) in Java to be preferable over writing them in Clojure (I find Clojure's gen-class to be somewhat tedious and rather use proxy).
If you're a user of Hibernate or any other framework that makes heavy use of Java-annotations without offering a programmatic alternative, you'll have some trouble, since it's not trivial to emulate annotated POJOs with Clojure's data structures.
Apart from that, I've experienced no use cases for which Clojure is less appropriate than Java; you have to cope with the loss of static typing, of course, which feels somewhat disconcerting at first, but tends to go away.