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I'm working on development of a social web application using Java. I need to develop the frontend/GUI of my application for web browsers.
I'm wondering what is the better strategy to do frontend development, whether using frameworks like JSF 2.0 & like OR simply following MVC approach with servlets and JSPs ?
As I have heard JSF really makes the development simpler but also the learning curve is not too low, so is it worth learning JSF or I should prefer to directly proceed with servlets/JSPs ?
I'm new to web applications development using Java & I've almost completed writing the business logic for the application.
Please justify your answer on the basis of following parameters:
Performance & costs
Ease of Development & Time (considering the learning time as well)
Future Maintenance of code
Any other parameters you consider important
Update (07-09-2012):
I finally went with JSF-2.0 & have no regrets till date. Learning curve is not steep. It's easier & development is fast with component libraries like Primefaces. There are some costs as to state saving but those things can be handled intelligently. Community is big & things are well documented now. Hopefully, in near future Stateless JSF is also coming which will boost JSF with extra high performance.
For a hobby webapp, homebrewing some MVC framework is not bad. It's a nice learning exercise tour. However, it will bite you on the long term, for sure if you publish on the web and it becomes popular. Most of existing MVC frameworks are very well thought out. Most of the unforeseen caveats are taken into account. The sole framework API is well maintained and documented by a third party.
Also, whenever your webapp becomes popular and you need more developers to work on it to fulfill the enduser requirements/wishes, it's easier to find someone who's already familiar with an existing framework. With a homebrewed and possibly buggy MVC framework, you'll likely find less developers who are eager enough to dive into another learning curve before taking over the maintenance which they'll probably never reapply on their future jobs/projects.
This does not specifically apply on JSF, but on every other existing and popular MVC framework as well, such as Spring MVC. As to JSF in general, well, I've written a lot about it before here. Here are some good starting points to read the one and other about it:
JSF versus plain HTML/CSS/JS
JSF adoption and popularity
What are the disadvantages of JSF 2.0?
For modern web apps like yours, and if your responsibility is the UI, you really don't want any "abstraction layer" stand between you and your html/css/javascript. Don't use any "component" framework.
I have heard JSF really makes the development simpler
Did you hear that from real webapp developers who actually used JSF in real products? Or just JSF committee patting their own backs? Or some old timers' wishful thinking that they don't need to learn the darn javascript?
If you choose JSF, please report your experience back to us after you shoot yourself out of frustration.
It's better use some MVC framework.
You can use either component based framework:
JSF = mostly standard, but its hard to learn and a lot of people don't like itTapestry = quite big and probably good framework
Wicket, GWT - smaller component based frameworks, handy, powerful, smart, but I haven't used them yet
Or you can use request oriented framework.
Spring MVC, Struts 2 = They are very similar. Spring MVC have probably better documentation
Struts - I do NOT recommend this, when you can use Struts 2, or Spring MVC - you can trust me in this point
Each framework have its pro-and-con it depend on situation and your knowledge. I cannot give you single-valued answer.
Spring MVC is very easy to learn and if you have a simple web app and you want to save your time, its better than JSF.
However if your web app is not so simple, JSF beats Spring MVC by far. Its model is more complicated, but it is much better structured and it is widely supported, so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel again in most of the cases. Complex gui can done with JSF with less effort.
You might want to consider Tapestry 5 if you're exploring options. We've been happily using it for many years on a large project in the social media space. It's an easy to use MVC framework that's component based. We're able to develop rapidly with it, especially now that we've built up a lot of our building blocks.
Learning time is probably on par with ramping up on any new framework. I'd perhaps say it's less than JSF and more than Spring MVC, though it really depends on what you're already familiar with and how deeply you use things. I put together a very small project on github a while back to get started with Tapestry 5 quickly, if you're interested it's tapstack.
As for long term use of a Tapestry based application, it has served us well. Maintenance of the code has been much better than when were using JSP. It's very stable as well. We've served billions of page views through Tapestry without any major problems.
On the downside it is less common than some other web frameworks. It is definitely a little different too. We feel it's worth it though, and refreshing to work with. Ultimately it's going to depend on what you need and what you feel works best for you. Best of luck with your decision.
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I'm a java developer, not seasoned, but I am familiar with most concepts reasonably well.
I recently built a website using Tomcat/JSP (~30 dynamic pages). I made the newbie mistake of including large sections of core logic in the JSP, using the rationalization that it's "just a simple project".
I learned the hard way. So I'm re-building the app now in google app engine using servlets and planning to use Velocity to implement it using a Model-View-Controller design pattern.
I'm also looking at Struts, but haven't used the framework before.
Can someone convince me why I should incorporate struts into this project? Is it really going to buy me a lot for a medium sized project of one or two people?
There is a clear cost in an extra learning curve with strut, will the benefits outweigh the costs? Or will the use of Velocity be enough to segregate the logic? Opinions?
I would look longer term than this project. As you saw, first time you use any technology is largely about making mistakes and learning from them. So this first project won't likely be a shining example of Struts usage once you're done.
Using Struts (and Tiles from what you indicate was a main concern: JSP copy and paste) will however be an excellent delve into "proper" MVC, i.e. it forces you to do things in a particularly structured way, and one which I happened to appreciate a lot, I was a big Struts fan.
That said, there are other options, e.g. Spring contains Spring MVC plus much much more. If you're going to invest in overcoming a learning curve, think about which framework will most benefit you overall in the medium term: which frameworks do employers in your area tend to look for, for example? At this point in time, I would go with Spring where I feel the momentum is but Struts is very good at what it does.
If you're going to learn a framework then I'd recommend Spring MVC over Struts. The learning curve isn't too steep and there are lots of Spring resources available on the internet.
Once you've got Spring in place you will find your application is much simpler to maintain and support. You'll also be able to add enhancements, like security, a lot easier.
First: don't let the name confuse you: Struts2 and Struts are very different frameworks.
Second: changing from JSP to Velocity can be a good or bad decisition, but that's not exactly the point. The point is to switch away from Model1 (rather ancient nomenclature, but still useful). That is, decoupling your view layer from your logic layer. (You can use JSP or Velocity for your view layer).
Furthermore, to decide your view layer is just a part of your architecture: you still must decide who will process the request and produce the data that will be sent to the view. The most basic option is to use plain servlets, but, again, it's better to use some framework. For this, there are a lot of frameworks in Java. The "action based" ones are a subset among them, perhaps the most simple to learn. Among them, the oldest is Struts; today the most used for new projects are (in no particular order) Struts2 , Spring MVC and Stripes - they are quite similar.
Learning to separate the logic is excellent. You can do that without using Velocity, Struts or any framework whatsoever, and you'll likely learn more about what it takes to do this separation if you try it with minimal help first.
Learning a framework (in fact multiple frameworks) is also worthwhile, but I wouldn't personally choose Struts as a first framework unless it's the one used by your employer or a prospective employer. If your employer is using Struts, I hope it's Struts 2, as Struts 1 is getting ancient.
The framework I like to work with the most is Wicket, but it's a radical shift from what you're currently looking at. SpringMVC is also definitely worth a look.
If your employer is already doing web development in Java using a framework, try to learn the framework that's actually in use, and ask your co-workers for help learning it.
Why you should learn Struts? My answer is: because employers often require knowledge of it, especially for maintaining of older projects. I didn't make any precise measurements, but I think that at my region JSF and Struts are used for web application development most often.
Struts is a quite old web framework, and it's quite clumsy to write modern AJAX GUIs with it, so there were created better frameworks. JSF is for me a bit less clumsy, but also has some problems. My favourite web frameworks are Vaadin and GWT, but I'm not suggesting anything for you - you should make the decision by yourself.
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I know it's a hot question that need anwsers ^^
From my viewpoint, using Java vs PHP, is nowadays a problem of system resources (Hardware, Software, etc.).
For Java, you have to deploy J2EE Stack (JDK, AppServer, etc.) (~200M) on your server, for PHP you need to deploy a LAMP system (~100M).
Using Java was in my opinion due to object oriented programming in web application, but today we have a lot of Object Oriented Web Language (Ruby, Python, PHP).
So the question when to choose between Java or PHP for new projects ? Maybe the community difference ?
I know that stackoverflow is not made for discussion, but it's a (good?) question that need answers (for me and for others maybe) ^^.
What are you guys talking about....
Okay JAVA has some pros, but it also has some cons. Now with PHP it is exactly the same, it has some pros, but it also has some cons.
People who say PHP doesn't have a good OO environment, well either does javascript! And really that is the heart of all web 2.0 projects; javascript. The back end today is becoming more of a resource for the front end. What you can do in JAVA now days you can do in PHP 5.3 - to some degree. If you are a good developer you will be clever enough to abstract your design to make it maintainable and if you are brillant you can match and even improve object sharing in PHP, which majority of web "designers" don't know about - or dare I say, comprehend. Check this article out by O'Reilly ON JAVA!.
I develop both in Java and PHP. I'll always use PHP for my server side and I'll use Java for Android Development, and desktop development. (By the way I have developed in java for backend development, but it take twice as long to do something in JAVA then to do it in PHP. That is why I stick to PHP.
I hear this spagetti code problem with PHP all the time. Yeah. Maybe 5 years ago! If you project ends up like this then the person, or you, is a poor programer, and you should stick to drawing pretty pictures. It is easy to separate your logic from presentation, and it is also simple to separate your business logic from you data layer. Think before you code. Don't just open up a note pad and start typing. Plan! People who fail to plan, plan to fail! Jacco you're on the money!
I see uni students all the time building code where I think, "The person who is going to end up with this guy is going to regret it". If the student just planed and documented what he was going to do then every thing would be organised and ready for scaling - again if he was good enough.
Both technologies are great and you should use what is more comfortable to you or your developers. If you go down the road where you think one is better than the other and you know nothing about that technology, well guess what? No matter what you do your projects outcome will be missed, and you'll end up having to do it again.
Other constraints are usually taken into account. Things like
development time,
maintainance cost of the codebase
availability of qualified programmers
salary cost for available qualified programmers
to name a few.
Hardware and software are cheap if you compare them to the above so they tend to be less important.
I did a non-scientific performance comparison of J2EE and PHP. The comparision was to see the user experience of each system under various load conditions.
I found that PHP's response time was very slow and CPU maxed out very quickly. I understand there are some compilers that will probably help, but I wanted to make an out of the box comparison of performance of rapid development systems.
You can read the full details here: PHP vs J2EE: a Practical Approach
It depends on what you're doing. Choosing a language/framework without analyzing your project requirements is a bad idea.
Choosing a language depends on what you want to do, But I am very sure that the different hard disk space requirement will be the least important aspect of your decision.
Here is a possible hint: If you want to reuse your work (or parts of it) in a desktop application, Use Java. PHP is virtually non-existent for everything except web programming.
I really don't think that it is a question that can objectively be answered. In the end it is about people and what they feel more comfortable with. That is why e.g. Facebook developed a PHP to C++ compiler (with which the performance benefit that Java has might become smaller, too) instead of just hiring C++ developers for doing the Job.
On the other hand, the Java platform offers some interesting new approaches like Grails (which is basically a Groovy Wrapper around Spring) and Lift, as well. That makes Frontend development faster and easier (I still find that this is a real pain with plain Java) and you can combine the benefits that other languages have with your existing Java codebase and expertise (btw. most of the Frameworks mentioned don't need a J2EE runtime environment a simple Tomcat installation with around 5M and an installed JRE should be enough). So it is not really about the Java programming language alone anymore.
And if you really can't decide at all you just run PHP in Java (works as well for Ruby, Python, Javascript ...).
PHP wins in front end in web development. Because it has much smaller development time which make things cheaper and cheaper.
PHP will lose in mobile app development. There is no way to develop a mobile app front end with PHP. And Because its performance gap with java and other static languages, PHP will lose the back end battle. Java is old, but it has a pretty young and professional community. Check out those names: lucene, weka, hadoop,scala,cassandra, hbase, what does php provide us in back end service???????
I do not really agree on the fact that the choice of a language is related to system resources.
Hardware is cheap and we are not in a time where we need to closely look at the system resources as we used to have. Don't misunderstand me: we still do need to pay attention, but the time where people were xoring their pointers to save some space is over (luckilly).
And if your main concern is performance, then either running a JVM or an interpreted language is probably not the best option.
I do not think it is related to the orientation of the language per se either. Ok, I know, PHP is not object oriented but still, you can now code OO with it. You will find descent web frameworks for almost any language.
I agree with Jacco on his list.
Another aspect is indeed the culture the language refers to.
PHP is for script kiddies. Java is for serious, wearing suits business developers. Of course, we all have many counter examples but still. Java was largely adopted by big companies, now competited by .Net. There are good reasons for this, among which the fact that it a lot easier to write poor code in PHP than in Java (and almost any other language). On the other hand, Java is not exactly freedom oriented.
If your project is strictly personal, you can choose whatever suits your tastes better. If you plan to develop as a team, the choice of the language will impact its general mood/way of thinking.
I would finally add some important parameters to me: fun and elegance
This may be a matter of taste here again, but I have much more fun coding in python than in C# for instance.
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I need to have an at-home project now that I'm working on Python/Django at work. I'd like to learn something new, so I was thinking of checking out Java.
What's the most well respected web framework for deploying Java web apps?
The only reason I'm not checking out ruby on rails is because of how similar the ORM and other parts are to Django.
Alternatively, does anyone think I should take a look at seaside/smalltalk? Can anyone explain why I should?
Haskell is something I'll consider if anyone can make a good argument for it. I'd need a web framework and database access library to go along with it though.
I'd consider factor/forth if I wasn't so accustomed to the stack paradigm via x86/asm. I'd be willing to hear any counter-arguments to this as well.
See also: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9v3uf/asm_c_python_perl_lisp_scheme_programmer_looking/
With that range of skills, why don't you learn something more outside your comfort zone, like carpentry or painting, or any of hundreds of other skills that have little to do with your field.
At some point, all languages are the same and you'll get scant benefit from learning another.
Whereas, with something totally different, you will become a much more well-rounded individual. I, for one, like painting and golf, even though I'm not that good at either of them - when I asked my golf instructor what my handicap was, he said it was an inability to hit the ball straight :-)
I find that I enjoy doing stuff I'm not accustomed to since it's a genuinely new experience. Learning another computer skill is a easy thing to do after a while and hence the pleasure from doing it is reduced.
Don't get me wrong, I like to keep up with developments in the field but, for the most part, the brand new technologies give nothing to my career since most work I do is on stable technologies. You may be in a different situation.
Haskell is pretty popular these days as a mind-bender, though it may not hurt as much for you if you already know Lisp and Scheme. It's purely functional, so there are no side effects to anything. You have to use monads to print text and do other things that require a certain order. It's also completely lazily evaluated, so you can make infinite lists in Haskell and not have to worry about memory consumption.
The Haskell Platform may not be fully complete, but is intended to be a portable set of libraries for Haskell. It's list of packages includes some for CGI handling and (X)HTML generation.
Sounds like you're into web programming, so smalltalk/seaside is a great one. IMO everyone should learn smalltalk even if they never use it, and seaside is a really different web framework than what you are used to. Django, fer instance, is all about REST, while the seaside philosophy basically says "to hell with REST."
And if you've never coded in an image based environment there's just something about it that seems... natural, magical even. Lots of IDE functionality that originated in smalltalk have been implemented in file based language IDE's, but it always feels like an unnatural grafting, where those same features feel as if they simply belong there in smalltalk.
Check out Pharo. Give it enough time to get used to the fact that there's no menu bar and see if it doesn't grab you.
I do suggest Java. When I was looking for a job, I noticed lots of openings for Java developers, so there's a lot of it out there, and you might someday have a chance to use your Java skills.
And then you should try out Scala. Scala is a sort of Python-ish language that uses functional programming to make very scalable programs. Unlike Python, in Scala you do need to declare types of things. Scala runs on the Java Virtual Machine so it can be used in Java shops.
http://www.scala-lang.org/
It's possible I'm just giving you this answer because these are the next two languages I intend to learn, myself.
You probably should also spend a little time playing around with Javascript. Javascript was sort of intended to be a "stealth Lisp" and I imagine you would pick it right up.
http://www.crockford.com/javascript/javascript.html
http://bc.tech.coop/blog/030920.html
And heck, have some fun with it. Write a game or something!
From your list I'd say you are due for a completely object oriented language.
You could check out Ruby, but I'd recommend JavaScript since it offers a lot of interesting things you probably wouldn't expect, like support for closures, higher-order functions and prototypical inheritance - plus it's kinda fun and becoming very popular.
I'd need a web framework and database access library to go along with it though.
If all your programming is based on web frameworks and SQL databases, you will only be solving the same problems with different syntax if you switch languages.
Build something using a different data model - Prolog, Conceptual Graphs, RDF, Linda/JavaSpaces, XQuery, HDF5, ASN.1, or a different network model - XMPP pub-sub, SNMP, a zero-config mesh or a swarm of ZigBee enabled Arduinos.
Maybe look at languages like Oz, Io or Erlang/OTP, which are distributed rather than primarily monolithic like the ones you mention.
What about the Java Spring framework?
http://www.springsource.org/
Or maybe NHibernate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHibernate
At the end of the day its up to you. As I only listed two out of many. When I am programming a static language professonally... I try to learn a dynamic or scripting language. And vice versa.
Also, I try to learn something totally different or outside my realm... maybe even Powershell or Korn shell or ActionScript.
What's the most well respected web framework for deploying Java web apps?
There is no single web framework more respected than others. Struts2, Spring MVC, Stripes or Wicket (which is event based) are all good candidates (I personally like Stripes). But you'll need a bit more for the persistence (Hibernate or JPA) and for the glue (Spring).
Grails (Groovy on Rails) is another good option.
Alternatively, does anyone think I should take a look at seaside/smalltalk? Can anyone explain why I should?
Well, I guess that learning Smalltalk can't hurt but I don't see a good reason to choose Smalltalk over a moderner language like Java. Regarding tooling, I don't know anything in this field except VisualAge for Smalltalk but, personally, I'd really stay far away from it.
Haskell is something I'll consider if anyone can make a good argument for it. [...]
Looks like I'm not the right guy for that.
I'd consider factor/forth if I wasn't so accustomed to the stack paradigm via x86/asm. I'd be willing to hear any counter-arguments to this as well.
Same as above.
I would have suggested mastering Lisp (in some relevant dialect) so even if you have Lisp and Scheme on your resume, it might be worthwhile to REALLY learn deeply. See http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html for reasons why.
Otherwise Prolog might interest you. It is related to SQL but for programming instead of communicating with an organised set of data tables.
If you want to target web technologies I only have experience with Java. Here the newest Java Server Faces (JSF) allow for using Ajax to update pages, and Google Web Toolkit allow for very rich component based web pages. These might be juicy enough to interest you enough to learn enough Java to find them fun :)
I don’t see C# and the .NET platform on your list. And I am surprised no one mentioned it yet.
I have worked in C# for 5 years. I have looked at some Java code but I have never coded in it. I believe that Java is somewhat similar to C# enough so that if you become proficient in one I think you could pick up the other is a matter of a few days.
One idea might be to create your own language / compiler. The one I would like to create (or see created) would be an Assembly Language level compiler with an object oriented syntax that would be very much like Python… but make it typed language. You could start with the basic raw binary types db, dw, dd, and then add on to these … The functions and methods could have assembly language freely mixed in the high-level code. Now, that would be a fun project, I think ?
Definitely try Haskell or Smalltalk or Forth.
I would say Smalltalk would be most useful while Forth would get you away from the x86 asm and C bullshit. There's more than one way to code close-to-the-hardware stuff.
Why don't you try OCaml? And if you ever happen (sadly) to return to .NET world - you will have knowledge of F# in your baggage.
I'm looking for real life benchmarks comparing web frameworks based on dynamic languages (Python, Ruby, Groovy and Lua). Even better if they're compared up against classic solutions based on PHP, Java, ASP.NET maybe even Perl. I'm particularly interested in:
Django
Ruby on Rails
Grails
Zend Framework
Struts2
EDIT:
As for Sean's answer:
It's more hypothetical question, in real life I've gotta choose based on more constrains then just raw speed.
Speed is not the only, and not even the most important parameter to take in account. It's actually more interesting how these frameworks scale.
Using standard, well know framework have advantages, that in most cases (unless you're doing something like EVE on-line) out-weight raw speed improvement.
Let me quote book "Struts2 in Action" by D. Brown, C.M. Davis and S. Stanlick:
"If you want, you could roll your own framework. This is actually not a bad plan. It
assumes a couple of things though. First, you have lots of really smart developers. Two, they
have the time and money to spend on a big project that might seem off topic from the perspective
of the business requirements. Even if you have the rare trinity of really smart people, time and
money, there are still some drawbacks. I've done work for a company whose product is built on
an in-house framework. The framework is not bad. But a couple of glaring points can't be
overlooked. First, new developers will always have to learn the framework from the ground up.
If you are using a mainstream framework, there’s a trained work force waiting for you to hire
them. Second, the in-house framework is unlikely to see elegant revisions that keep up with the
pace of industry. In fact, in-house frameworks seem to be suspect to architectural erosion as the
years pass and too many extensions are less elegantly tacked on than one would hope."
I couldn't agree more.
If your project has a serious, identifiable, need for speed, to the point where your framework is a consideration, taking a general-purpose framework is a bad idea to begin with. They're all going to be too slow, by virtue of being high-level, general purpose & extensible.
If your project does not have a hard requirement for an ultra-efficient framework, then you probably wasted more time typing in the question than you'd actually save by going with the 'fastest' framework.
Techempower benchmark:
http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks
They are comparing a lot of frameworks and accept new frameworks for comparison. Interface very intuitive. In my view, it is the best benchmark now.
World wide wait - 1 hour speech
http://www.parleys.com/#id=2942&st=5
Django is not here, it's only benchmark of JVM frameworks. But still, it is quite scientific, worth it.