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A few months ago I created a shop manager software for one of our customers.
One of the requirements was Adobe ColdFusion. Nevertheless, I came up with a really nice product, simple and fast, a few nice ideas and some positive feedbacks.
Now I think I am ready for letting "bigger" customers see my project.
I prefer not to write that next version in ColdFusion, I'm looking for something much more scalable and reliable.
The cloud computing, actually, is making me really curious! In particular, Google AppEngine seems to have all I need:
I know Java
I could start from scratch, without paying anything
It's Google, what's more reliable than it?
I made a few helloworld-s, looking for the best technology to use.
GWT is really nice, but my dev team loves html+css "page centric" apps, so I think it would be a too high jump. Instead of it I was considering:
Spring MVC 3.x
Objectify 4 (as a persistence manager, instead of JDO/JPA)
My questions are:
Based on your experiences, do you think that GAE is suitable for developing and hosting a "shop manager" software, which will manage tables (CRUD), make reports, and so on? My projects is really simple.
Do the two technology I mentioned are good and enough for such a project? What will I need in addition?
I've made an pretty standard shop, using: Appengine + Spring + Groovy + Objectify (and backbonejs + google closure templates for client side)
And from my experience I can say:
It's possible :)
Such system requires a lot of transactions - it's possible, but not so trivial using appengine. There is a lot of transactions, and a lot of work
Reports is better to prepare on background (taskqueue/cron/prospectivesearch), and it's hard to prepare 'on-demand' or custom reports (actually it's must be done on background anyways)
I'm happy with my current implementation, but I see that using an standard RDBMS fits much better for this type of projects.
PS And also, you can take a look at CloudFoundry, I didn't tried it yes, but seems that it's good thing too and it have PostreSQL as service
I plan to start a mid sized web project, what language + framework would you recommend?
I know Java and Python. I am looking for something simple.
Is App Engine a good option? I like the overall simplicity and free hosting, but I am worried about the datastore (how difficult is it to make it similarly fast as a standard SQL solution? + I need fulltext search + I need to filter objects by several parameters).
What about Java with Stripes? Should I use another framework in addition to Stripes (e.g. for database).
UPDATE:
Thanks for the advice, I finally decided to use Django with Eclipse/PyDev as an IDE.
Python/Django is simple and elegant, it's widely used and there is a great documentation. A small disadvantage is that perhaps I'll have to buy a VPS, but it shouldn't be very hard to port the project to App Engine, which is free to some extent.
Since you mentioned python, I would suggest looking into Django. You may need to look harder for hosting options, however...
Is App Engine a good option? I like the overall simplicity and free hosting, but I am worried about the datastore (how difficult is it to make it similarly fast as a standard SQL solution? + I need fulltext search + I need to filter objects by several parameters).
App Engine is nice. It supports Python or Java (with some limitations), and it provides free hosting for small needs (rare, at least for Java). But I wouldn't expect the exact same performances as with dedicated servers, the cloud is about scalability, not performance (you won't always get the fastest response time for a single hit; however, GAE would handle gazillions of concurrent hits without any problem while your servers would be on fire). But this scalability is not without cost; if you don't need it, the development tradeoffs may be too much trouble. And also note that it does not support full-text search out of the box (what an irony), you will have to use extra tooling.
What about Java with Stripes? Should I use another framework besides Stripes (e.g. for database).
I like Stripes very much. I love its conventions over configuration approach, it's a very elegant and simple framework (but still powerful). Definitely not a bad choice. For persistence, if you go for GAE, you will have to use JPA or JDO. If you don't, it's at your discretion (although I would go for JPA).
See also
Google AppEngine - A Second Look
As many things in life, this depends on what your goals are. If you intend to learn a web framework that is used in corporate environments, then choose a Java solution. If not, don't. Python is certainly more elegant and generally more fun in pretty much every way.
As to which framework to use, django has the most mindshare, as evidenced by the number of questions asked about it here. My understanding is that it's also pretty good. It's best suited for CMS-like web sites, though - at least that's what it's coming from and what it's optimized for. You might also have a look at one of the simpler, nimbler ones, such as the relatively new flask. All of these are enjoyable, though they may not all have all features on AppEngine.
Kay and Tipfy are excellent Python framework choices when you target specifically GAE. Kay is modelled after and similar to Django, but is better suited to GAE.
I've been kick App Engine around a little bit, and so far the DataStore is pretty quick... there is a bit of a learning curve compared to SQL, but I've had no real issues. I'm not sure about fulltext search, however filtering is simple, you would just run each filter one at a time.
class DBModel(db.Model):
field1 = db.StringProperty()
field2 = db.StringProperty()
field3 = db.IntegerProperty()
GQLObj = DBModel.all().filter('field1 =', 'Foo')
GQLObj = GQLObj.filter('field2 =', 'Bar')
As far as hosting, with GAE I'm not sure you even get a choice, I know you can register your own domain with google though.
I don't think the datastore is a problem. Many people will reject it out of hand because they want a standard relational database; if you are willing to consider a datastore in general then I doubt you will have any problems with the GAE datastore. Personally, I quite like it.
The thing that might trip you up is the operational limitations. For example, did you know that an HTTP request must complete within 10 seconds?
What if you get 50% of the way through a project and then find that a web service you are using sometimes take 15 seconds to respond? Now you are toast. You can't pay extra to get the limit raised or anything like that.
So, my point is that you must approach GAE with great care. Learn about the limitations and make sure that they will not be a problem before you start using it.
It depends on your personality. There's no right answer to this question any more than there's a right answer to "what kind of car should I drive?"
If you're artistic and believe code should be beautiful, use Rails.
If you're a real hacker type, I think you'll find a full-stack framework such as Rails or Django to be unsatisfying. These frameworks are "opinionated" software, which means you have to really embrace the author's vision to be most productive.
The wonderful thing about web development in the Python world is there's several great minimal frameworks. I've used several, including web.py, GAE's webapp, and cherrypy. These frameworks are like "here's a request, give me a string to serve up." It's raw. Don't think you'll be stuck in Python concatenating strings though, God no. There's also several excellent templating libraries for Python. I can personally recommend Cheetah but Mako also looks good.
Google App Engine + GWT and you have a pretty powerful combination for developing web applications. The datastore is quite fast, and it has so far done the job quite nicely for me.
In my project I had to do a lot of redesigning of my database model, because it was made for a traditional relational database, and some things were not (directly) possible with the datastore.
GWT has a fairly moderate learning curve, but it gets the job done very well. The gui code is really easy to get started with, but it's the asynchronous way of thinking that's the hardest part.
As for search I don't think it's supported in the framework. Filtering is possible on parameters.
There are some limitations to GAE, and you should consider them before putting all your eggs in that basket. The fact that GAE uses J2EE distribution standards makes the application very easy to move to a dedicated server, should the limitations of GAE become a problem. In fact I only think you would have to refactor the part of your code that makes the queries and stores the data (which shouldn't be much more than 100 lines).
I've built several apps on GAE (with Python) over the last year. It's hard to beat the ease with which you can get an app up and running quickly. Don't discount the value in that alone.
While you may not understand the datastore yet, it is extremely well documented and there are great resources - including this one - to help you get past any problem you might have.
I need your advice about framework selection (Java vs Mono) for a new large scale web project which will be developed for linux hardware.
Which platform do you prefer and why ?
Best Regards,
Sirmak
Since you haven't specified anything about the project nor the developers' expertise, they are the same. Both have a lot of strengths and weaknesses, both are free, and both can use high-level languages which get precompiled, the precompiled stuff getting interpreted at runtime. Both have tons of technologies to do a "large scale web project" including technologies for abstracting the DB layer and doing pages and templating. Both have many many many MVC frameworks. Both have CMSes available. Both have ways to work with mobile devices, and multiple UI frameworks.
If you have no specific needs whatsoever, flip a coin. You'll be fine with either. On the other hand, you might want to know your project a bit better before asking this question.
Edit: If you have a "strong .Net background" as you say in your comment under your question, then Mono is a great fit. It's not that Mono allows you to do "something like" .Net: Mono allows you to run .Net assemblies without any alteration in most cases. This means that you can develop in .Net yet deploy on Mono (Of course you'll want to be testing on Mono during the entire development cycle), or develop for Mono without retraining your developers. Mono is, in 2009, mature and being used in many places.
As far as distributed searching/caching goes, what technologies are you looking at in Java that might work? This will give the Mono experts a chance to propose Mono alternatives.
Another thing you need to consider are the skill sets of the people working on this, and how easy you'll find it in the future to hire Java/Mono people wherever you are (or are you willing to train them).
You can specify a great framework, but if you can't find people to work on it then you've got a major problem.
Sirmak, You should check out this post where they talk about Mono performance. This might factor into your concern. In summary, Mono is still slower compared to others.
If gathering requirements for a medium-to-large web-based project, at what point should one consider using Java-based back-end, JSP, etc, over a scripting language like PHP, Python, or Ruby?
Hearing "use the right tool...", when is Java the right tool for web-based projects?
What is the "Best" language is often degrades to an emotional debate rather than practical. Champions of each language are extremely good at making arguments for why each language is the best. I ususally look ata couple of factors:
A) What languages are you and your team confortable with?
B) Is there an existing application/system to be extended or integrated? If so, what languages are most effective for such an integration
C) Are there built in or redily available libararies, components, etc that will allow you to more effectively produce results in one language over another
My decisions almost always boil down to what language/platform is my team going to be most effective on both developming and maintaining.
In my opinion, the language decision cannot be made independently of the larger development and runtime platform. This is implied by what James Conigliaro wrote, and also by what jonnii wrote, but neither called it out specifically.
Making such a decision, people often use unwarranted relative weightings for different evaluation criteria. For example, one of the criteria might be "runs on iPhone." But if you are not actually developing on an iPhone, you really don't care.
"Performance" is another criterion that can get an unwarranted weighting. Most Intel-based servers today, costing let's say $2000 without storage, are plenty fast to support a fairly high-volume web site regardless of your choice of language. If your load exceeds that which can be run on a single server (don't assume!), or if you need to share the server among different workloads, then perf may become more important. But generally your app load will fit in a 1-server box.
The development environment, including the IDE but also the source code control, the configuration management, and defect tracking - I guess what you might call application lifecycle stuff - is more important, in my opinion, than the language per se.
Another aspect you may wish to consider is, the "pull" the language itself will have on devs for your team. In the early days of Java, you could attract devs just by saying "we're doing it in Java." Now, that phenomenon has largely faded for Java, but in pockets it may still be true for other langs and platforms. This factor may or may not be important to you.
Pick the language/platform that your team is most comfortable using, the one which matches your deployment target and that you're mostly proficient in.
I have over 20 years of programming experience and I learned one important fact: it doesn't matter which tool you use, as long as you're comfortable using that tool. For larger teams, all team members must be comfortable with the choice you made.
I always tell people that it doesn't matter which tools you used to create an application. All that counts is if it will work as expected.
I'm planning to use Java for a project served using Google App Engine (Java support, of course). This is not The Answer [tm], but only my 2 cents :-)
Whoever has the libraries you need:
If you want to customize something pre-made, use PHP. This will usually be shopping carts, forums, and CMS
Java will have more libraries for random things (like fetching RSS feeds)
Don't know about Python/Ruby on Rails;
Rails is simple to learn, well organized and well documented. It's also agile and RAD (rapid application development). It's not perfect, but you could give it a try. It's another take on the web development. Java web framework are not so easy to understand and start is not so simple IMHO.
If you have to build a large web application, with rails you could separate the monolith app with different apps and then use ActiveResource restfully.
http://guides.rubyonrails.org
Almost always :-)
What I mean is that you can do any web project with Java/JSP adding more or less to the mix ( Spring, iBatis, etc )
But, as already pointed out, there are cases when you decide to use something else because for instance your team has a lot of experience with younameit and no experience with java or things like that.
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Closed 10 years ago.
Question for all the GWT gurus out there - which is the best GWT widgets library out there? And why?
List based on the answers:
Default
Sencha GXT
Smart GWT
Vaadin
GWT-Bootstrap
GwtBootstrap3
Rocket GWT (inactive)
Tatami (inactive)
ErraiFramework
GWTMaterialDesign
И наконец- новое поколение основанное на JsInterop:
GWT + Polymer Elements
GWT + Polymer
Angular and GWT
GWTMaterialDesign
Do not bind yourself to ANY of these libraries. Use Vanilla GWT to create the structure of your project. In particular, use the MVP pattern and an Event Bus. Please, see google article to know how to best design your client application with GWT: Building MVP apps
After, you can use any widget of these libraries (say a table, or a combobox, a datepicker, etc) and incorporate it to your project. Try to use extended components ONLY if you don't see a way to do it with vanilla GWT. This way you don't tie yourself to these libraries which are ALWAYS a pain when you try to do something that doesn't appear in the demo application, contain many bugs and their support are poor at best.
How to look for widgets should follow this order:
First check GWT Incubator to see if
there's what I'm looking for.
http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit-incubator/
Then, if you are looking for
something "cooler" check GWT Mosaic
http://code.google.com/p/gwt-mosaic/
Careful with other libraries, I've worked with them (and still have nightmares).
Depends on what you mean by "best". Best looking? Best API? Best for extending to your own custom needs?
E.g., I was just evaluating table classes to use in our application. We've been using GWT-Ext, but it has many performance problems for us, and is very hard to get the tables sized the way we need them. I came very close to going with GWT-Mosaic, but decided instead to build off the widgets in the GWT Incubator.
So, why did I make this choice? It seems that too many of the libraries out there come with their own, for lack of a better word, baggage. Either you have to dive whole-hog into some MVC framework (which may not be entirely compatible with the rest of your code base), or you have to adopt someone's new fangled layout system, or you have to live with the fact that you cannot really debug the code (because its just JSNI wrappers).
Don't get me wrong, the GWT Incubator isn't perfect...the widgets there are in some amount of flux. In my case, this was the best choice, though. It gives me good (but definitely not perfect):
API
Extensibility
Look and feel (well, this is kinda weak, but that's what CSS is for.)
So...the answer (for me) is a combination of:
Stock GWT widgets (with lots of custom styling)
GWT Incubator tables
A few home-grown widgets
(I should add: the "baggage" I'm referring to isn't necessarily a bad thing. But, if you just want a widget or two, it can raise the bar on what it takes to just get your work done and how good youe application looks.)
See this component library GWT Bootstrap this is a implementation in gwt of Twitter Bootstrap.
GWT alone is a pretty good library.
I didn't use all of the mentioned ones but can recommend Ext GWT.
I prefer vanilla GWT.
Some of the other APIs look pretty and their showcases really show off the widgets, but I always find that the performance isn't the best....when I say performance I mean more like response time. I hate when an application feels sluggish.
Most of the libraries mentioned are not open source and even worse: are just wrappers on top of a JavaScript library. The power of GWT lies in the fact that the application works on different browsers (because of the code generation for the "big" browsers specifically). These JavaScript underlying libraries can cause lots of problems.
I agree with jgindin GWT Incubator and GWT Mosaic are the best so far.
Not saying it's "the best", but I've been using GWT-Ext at work lately. It's got some pros and cons:
Pros:
Relatively easy to setup and use
Decent sized community behind it
LOTS of examples online, all of which have accompanying code
Good selection of widgets that cover a wide range of functionality
Cons:
Makes assumptions about your data's format and structure that you may not be able to accommodate
Library is just a JSNI wrapper, which makes it harder to debug and extend
Future support and development on the library is uncertain
Some annoying cross-browser issues still exist (especially with layouts)
Search function on their forums is essentially useless. (This is becoming a big pet peeve of mine >_<)
Do NOT use any of them! If you plan to develop a large scale application, you should consider using MVP pattern. The best implementation around is MVP4G framework, it supports GWT code splitting out of box. There are a lot of great examples, you can start with. The most valuable one is Mvp4GModules.
Add the new one: GWT-Bootstrap :)
There isnt a stable release right now, but will have soon.
My experience shows that there are always many problems with 3rd party libraries. The best way - is to use well-known and well-maked technology itself plus your own components. It may take a longer time to write and maintain them, but TCO is always at lower level.
3rd party libraries often can break your plans unexpectedly. And it's hard to find and fix the source of problem.
So I'd suggest to use plain GWT.
I think SmartGWT is fine if you just whant to use the Widgets as they are,
but if you would like to extend or modify the widgets as I do in
the Gxt Scheduler I think that Ext-GWT is a better choice.
for me EXT-GWT (aka GXT) is the best library currently available,I use it in 6 months project,and it helps a lot with many predefined components like grids,trees....
It's beautiful as well
SmartGWT is a good library and it has a lot of examples but the user interface is not that sleek. For user interface Ext GWT is good.
gwt-mosaic's user group doesn't seem very active and I couldn't find a user's manual besides the wiki snippets. gwt-mosaic introduced me to two interesting tools.
1) gwt-mosaic includes a wrapper for Tibco's PageBus which is a publish/subscribe tool for the JS parts of your app (RPC handlers, widget callbacks, widget setters). This is an alternative to gwt's event bus.
2) gwt-mosaic encourages the use of Beans Binding (http://code.google.com/p/gwt-beans-binding/) for binding data to widgets and validating widgets.
smartgwt isn't cheap for the full feature set and support. The jar is too large for appengine unless you remove the theme files you don't use. They invest engineering on the server side too.
I've heard ext-gwt is sluggish and the JS files are large.
The gwt widget incubator looks deprecated. I believe the deluxe grid will be released with the new gwt.
The lack of look-and-feel, binding, and validation standards is hampering the interoperability of widget libraries.
Definitely not SmartGWT. Their framework is bloated and has a very half-baked nature. They have a million widgets, but trying to get them to work for your project is not easy. Datasources complicate the process of managing your data in a very big way, for example, in order to get to data in your datasource, you must use fecth and inspect often. While you can cache the results, it is not always easy to interrogate them.
RPC is another weak and convoluted area. There is contradicting information in the documentation and in the forums. While the documentation will say that you should rarely use a custom operation as part of a ds, they forum will tell you that it's perfectly fine. Learning to use these tools effectively is an uphill climb on the best of days.
They will oversell the product. For example, the charting/analytics package contains graphs... But those graphs won't display negative values or let you manipulate axis labels in any meaningful way. And they openly respond to queries about this on the forum with a "yeah so what" attitude. "We don't plan on adding that to 3.0x even though that's one of our selling points, it's on our road map." When they sold me the package, they never mentioned that I couldn't display negative values. Really? What graph would not need to be able to show negative values? I can think of only one- the one depicting the number of unhappy Isomorphic customers.
Stay away from these guys, and head over to any competitor's site, for example ExtJS, JQuery, heck even quxdoo. There are a few projects out there that are really gaining ground and actually offer a good solution.
Take great caution if you ever evaluate this product. It looks nice, but about two weeks in to the project using it, you'll start seeing what I mean. Widgets are half baked, datasources are extremely over complicated, and just because you paid for forum support, doesn't mean you'll actually get anything other than snide, condescending answers that at first will make you think you missed something. You didn't they're generally very arrogant.
Best of luck, and stay away from this product if you value your development time and maintainability. Oh and one last thing. Look at the MVC example on their web site. It has literally nothing to do with MVC other than the label reads "MVC". They'll try to convince you that such frameworks are for inexperienced developers, and that such a concept has no place in real programming... Kinda like those try catch blocks.
Google's default library is the most powerful library.
Ext GWT adds bells and whistles but apart from that it's similar to Google's.
We're currently liking the GWT Mosaic widgets. We've worked with ext-JS and we've rolled our own widgets in the past. ext-JS licensing and bulk were a problem for us. Rolling our own isn't what we want to do. Mosaic gives us a happy middle ground which we like to think will be an even happier middle ground as the project matures.
I would say if you need only a few widgets then build your own. You might copy-paste some concepts from the libraries mentioned. But they all lack one or the other thing.
I have played with most of them and abandoned every one.
One thing to be aware of is that from the forums GWT-Ext looks like it will no longer be developed/maintained much (maybe not at all?). On their website they recommend migrating to SmartGWT.
Didn't see this one mentioned, Vaadin (previously known is IT Mill Toolkit), but maybe that's because it's not technically exactly GWT; as their FAQ says:
How does this differ from GWT?
GWT applications run in the browser,
while Vaadin applications run on the
server. We do actually use GWT as a
"rendering engine" on the browser
side, so you can combine Vaadin and
GWT.
smartGWT is slow and examples are lacking and it is very hard to find answers for even the basic questions, i.e. see all my non answered questions on this forum.
I'm dumping smartgwt.
Comparison of the two EXTs here with pros and cons.
We have built a large HR portal and a couple of smaller applications using GWT Portlets. The focus of the project is not so much on building a collection of widgets but on creating a simple programming model.
From the website:
GWT Portlets is a free open source web framework for building GWT (Google Web Toolkit) applications. It defines a very simple & productive, yet powerful programming model to build good looking, modular GWT applications.
The programming model is somewhat similar to writing JSR168 portlets for a portal server (Liferay, JBoss Portal etc.). The "portal" is your application built using the GWT Portlets framework as a library. Application functionality is developed as loosely coupled Portlets each with an optional server side DataProvider.
I am using GWT for a year. After lots of research, I have decided GWT Mosaic as a widget library.. Mosaic uses some of the GWT incubator components such as PagingScrollTable.. But the features of the combobox and table are not sufficient for us.. That is why, we have extended these components to add needed functionality.
Check out SpiffyUI: www.spiffyui.org
It is not just a widget library but complex UI/UX GWT framework.
Two important things -and what the most of libraries miss- are unit testing and debugging. It is where GWT shines. If you use a library which is based on vanilla js, you give away the ability to unit test and debug your project. As a GWT developer you should consider these points and use a library with no or minimal js dependency.
We've been doing gwt projects for more than 2 years, and we stick to the default widgets. We made our own open source library to autopopulate the default ones or our own widget extensions. Please check it, it's called gwt-jet. It's very well tested since we use it in large production environments, and we hope it will grow safely thru time.